Update on the state of things

I'm going to be brutally honest, because at this point, it makes no difference to me.

I have told you why your admin-planned plots don't work. You chose not to listen. It is because you can't predict how a character will act in a given scenario yet you continue to plan plots on your assumptions of how our characters will react to the scenarios you set up.

When people do that in normal threads, the reaction is usually something like this:

After her ever-so-clumsy-yet-strangely-graceful fall my character laughed, continued trying to get the plump barmaid's attention. Demanding more alcohol and trying to get his hand under the barmaid's skirt.

The player talked to me on msn. Asking why? Did I not like her? Telling me how he would see her and have gone over to help.

No sweetheart. He wouldn't. He is my puppet, not yours. That's what you wanted and expected. I told her it wasn't personal, it was IN CHARACTER. And she huffed and went on and Mr Blocky got a workout.

You can complain that when I was setting up the Death Eater's plot, it took too long, but that's because I PMed every person whose reaction was a crucial part of the plot (every student who I needed to be too terrified to fight back when we kidnapped them) and asked what their character's reaction would be in that situation and also asked if they would mind if we godmodded their character slightly when it came to things like them being hit by torturous spells. I didn't assume that people would act a certain way, and when they acted in a way I hadn't expected I went with that, even if it meant my character was at a disadvantage.

I don't think the admin team is a problem because you don't get along; I think it's a problem because you run around like headless chickens putting energy into things like the personal houses forum and trying to revamp the sickle system when there are more important issues to address. And I do believe that most of you are more concerned with having the power of admin status than you are with actually helping the site.

You can even see it in this thread. Keith and Jack are giving you good feedback and good ideas, but you don't have the grace to accept it, you just make excuses about why it would never work and keep trying to blame the failure of the demon plot on the members. You were the one trying to make superpowered characters and force the members into a corner. If you want to be a good admin (all of you) you need to take responsibility for your mistakes as well as your successes.

At least for me, the inactivity isn't because of too many characters, it's because I've spent too much time being disappointed by people who are supposed to be responsible for enforcing rules and things, and they just won't do it. Is it because nobody wants to be the mean admin? Is it because you refuse to reign in your favourites? I don't know. I'm getting to the point where I'm not interested, either.

BTW, Jack, if you want your character to be in trouble, give me a PM.

Selwyn,

We have seen your lengthy, expressive post, and we do want to give you a thoughtful response. Jess will reply to you in a couple of days or so. He has some important RL issues that are demanding his attentions at the moment, but he chooses to respond to you himself as soon as he can put the RL stuff in order.

Just wanted to let you know we hear you, and we are not ignoring you.

K.

Hey all, sorry about the wait, as Khaat mentioned, i've had a few little issues.

Chase, we've announced now, i know you've already seen it, but i figured i'd post it here anyway.

Jack, the problem with that is that we just don't seem to have the DEs, if i could get their activity up, i would, but if i could get their activity up we probably wouldn't have this problem anyway.

Now, onto selwyn, haha.

Well, what am i meant to do selwyn? People want us to plan a plot, but here you are openly saying that people wont follow it, and don't say that i'm putting words in your mouth, because that is pretty much what you said, if we leave it too open, people get shitty with us for not keeping the plot fuelled, and it goes limp. Was that example about me? I'm not certain, but if it was i think it's the other way round, i've not blocked you, but you've not been on in ages for me, so i'd say it's the other way.

And yes, it is wonderful to be able to get every members approval on every aspect of the plot, however if we'd waited as long as you did, we'd have the same issues we have right now, yes, i'd love to be able to make sure it's all fine, but i doubt people would be that patient, but i'll definitely take it on board and try and get that all sorted out a lot better for future plots.

Now, this next part i really consider to just be rude, you know nothing, i repeat, nothing, about how the admins work. We're in communication just about every day, we post all the time in the admin centre, a spot the members can't see, and we are constantly working on bigger scheme stuff, we just like to do some little things for you guys to help you along, i don't see anyone complaining that we try and do these things, we're just trying to improve the site, and then people like you come along and demean us for it, yes we've let ourselves down a bit in recent times, but in doing these small things we feel that we're doing our bit to help the site.

And you dare, you DARE to say that we don't care about this site... euh, you make me so mad, i don't really want to be talking to you at the moment, but it's my job.
No one on the team gives a damn about status, and all of us are focused on trying to better the site in our own little ways, yes some of our ideas mightn't work, but we all pour our time patience and effort into the site, and you have the nerve to come along and say we're more caught up in being admins than in actually helping the site. Gosh, i really really want to say something mean right now, but i know i can't...

I don't have the grace to accept it? Did i at any point say that we weren't going to try the mod system? No, i didn't. And the reason i said that the DE stuff mightn't work is because
1) we don't have the numbers in the DEs
2) i can't force the teachers/DEs to do what i tell them, i've tried, and they just wont do it, so, instead of continuing with the DEs, i'm going to try and open hogwarts back up so we can finally get a functioning staff back there, it's been too long since hogwarts has had a decent staff...

I've tried being the mean admin before, people complain and call for my sacking, you seem to be the only one who wants a mean admin, and if we don't want to be a mean admin, who cares, we don't have to be mean to get things done, rules are generally enforced, i don't see any major breaches anywhere, really the only ones i see are people breaking post count every now and then, and i don't really mind that, because on the most part people are fine about it. I don't have favourites on this site, in fact i hardly know any of them, if anything, before this, you could've fallen under that banner, but i think i speak for the whole team when i say we don't give preference to anyone, if we see a rule breached, we try and fix things up, but i don't see these issues of "Lack of enforcement"

Sorry if you're not interested, i don't think i can do anything about that 'till you tell me what you want out of the site, 'cause all i hear is what you don't want, maybe this revamp of the plot will keep you interested, but otherwise i'm at a loss as to what you want from the site.

It is obvious you do not understand what I'm trying to tell you. If you did, you would not be reacting this way. I am not attacking you. I am giving you insight, that I picked up while I was privileged enough to help moderate one of the most successful roleplay sites in this genre.

I'm not saying you're not putting in effort. I think you are putting in lots of effort. Lots and lots and lots. But expending all your energy by trying to fix things that don't need it, or trying to enhance the site with things we don't need isn't helpful.

Now, if you can, I'd like you to put down your defensiveness and read what I have to say with an open mind, rather than dismissing me as someone who doesn't have a clue about how tough you have it.

People want us to plan a plot, but here you are openly saying that people wont follow it, and don't say that i'm putting words in your mouth, because that is pretty much what you said, if we leave it too open, people get shitty with us for not keeping the plot fuelled, and it goes limp.

Okay, I think you're getting "planning" confused with "facilitating". One of the most enjoyable things about RPG is not knowing exactly what's going to happen. I've said it before; if I want to know what's going to happen, I'll write fiction.

I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't have an idea of what you want to achieve with a site plot. I'm suggesting that instead of creating a closed plan wherein you decide that A will happen, followed by B and C, you instead create an more open plan where A will trigger some event that can potentially lead to B or C or even D, E and F, depending on how the charaters react.

Facilitating the plot allows you to jump in and drive the plot forward if you need to but also to stand back and let the members make up their own stories if they seem inclined to do so. You don't always need to have a choke-hold on the plot and the pacing.

The reason people on this site want you to plan the plot for them, and to tell them when the next thing is happening is because most of them probably haven't experienced real freeform role playing.

Plotting is a comfort zone. People feel like they have more control over what's happening to their characters when they plot out all the details in advance, but that nullifies the point of RPing in the first place - which is to play a role, practice your creative abilities and enjoy the excitement of writing with other people. We have rules which protect our characters from being abused, so we don't need this very detailed planning beforehand. Instead of protecting our characters, it just prevents us from being as creative as we could be.

And yes, it is wonderful to be able to get every members approval on every aspect of the plot, however if we'd waited as long as you did, we'd have the same issues we have right now, yes, i'd love to be able to make sure it's all fine, but i doubt people would be that patient, but i'll definitely take it on board and try and get that all sorted out a lot better for future plots.

I agree with that, and I think I made a mistake in running that plot the way I did. However, there are ways of getting around that. I've asked more than once for a plot discussion forum, because the best way I've ever seen a plot run was when we used to start a plot and then open a discussion topic about that plot so that all the members participating could talk about how to make the plot work out best for everyone as we were playing it out.

One of the other problems on PA is that it feels to me like unless you're in a romance thread, everyone seems to be fighting against each other. When I usually RP, I feel like I'm writing with others, like I'm contributing to something bigger. When I write here, I usually feel like I'm writing against everyone, like everyone just wants their character to win the thread. A noticeable deviation was the Beauxbatons Carriage thread. Everyone cooperated in that beautifully.

Um, the next part of your post was a bit ranty, and I think I've addressed it already in any case. I won't embarrass you by reposting it.

I've tried being the mean admin before, people complain and call for my sacking, you seem to be the only one who wants a mean admin, and if we don't want to be a mean admin, who cares, we don't have to be mean to get things done,

When I said that, I meant I wonder if you don't want to be perceived as mean. If you're going to admin a site, there are times when you have to crack down on people. I don't mean doing what you're doing here and having an emotional response to someone telling you your site's flaws without couching it in praise. I mean, there are times when you need to swing that banhammer.

And people will talk about you. They will gossip with their friends who are still on the site. They'll talk about how unfair you were and how you suck and how they're going to set up their own site that's better than PA and how they'll steal all your members. You will probably hear about it. And if you can't handle that, being an admin might not be for you.

Just like if you can't handle someone giving you creative criticism because they enjoy playing on this site and they really don't want to leave but are getting to the point where it seems like their only option, then being an admin might not be for you.

I don't want a mean admin. I want a responsible admin. Sometimes, that means the admin has to make hard choices and sometimes those choices make them look a bit mean. It doesn't make them a mean person.

rules are generally enforced, i don't see any major breaches anywhere, really the only ones i see are people breaking post count every now and then, and i don't really mind that, because on the most part people are fine about it.

I don't care about post count. I think post counts are a crock. But I see people godmodding and metagaming and powerplaying like there's no tomorrow. When I report those posts, nothing happens. I don't know if that's because you think I'm too sensitive about those things, or because the report button doesn't work. It looks like you're just refusing to enforce the rules, though.


This is what I'd like:

I'd like to know which admin is in charge of what. It makes it easier on everyone if you put up a topic saying who does what jobs, because then when a member has a problem, instead of PMing whoever's on or choosing pot-luck, we can get in touch with the person who'll be best able to help us.

I'd like the planned plots to have more room for movement. Even if it's just a little bit at first, I'd like it if the plot wasn't so dependant on how you expect or want the characters to behave. That's the only reason the Death Eaters don't work, because they do things you don't expect (which is what they're supposed to do!).

I'd like you to read the posts on the board. I'd like you to see how many people take liberties with other people's characters, and not just by directly godmodding, but by metagaming as well. One of the problems that's rampant is when people have their character react to someone else's narrative rather than their description or dialogue.

I'd like you to divorce your admin-self from yourself. I'm not criticising you. I'm criticising some of your choices. These are all things that you can fix, but you can only fix them if you can put aside your pride for long enough to understand what I've said.

Ah thanks for this. At least now we know that the admins aren't doing much to increase the activity here. And since this has become something of a suggestions thread, I'll add my own thoughts and suggestions too, though some of you may be offended by my opinions.

PA has been around for three years now and almost always has a lot of members logging in per day. That is, indeed, the sign of a successful site. But in my opinion, the site has been lucky to have stayed active for so long. I think the real problems in the site have been there for a long time and have not been addressed. Mainly: the Admin team, the members, the organization and of course, the plot.

I won't question the commitment of the admin team, because I know from personal experience that the majority of the admins do put a lot of effort into the site and are very active (most of the time.) However, I also know (again, from personal experience) that the admin team completely lacks organization, direction and teeamwork. There is always a lot of discussion about the plot, the organization of the site, the events and etcetera. But hardly anything (major) ever happens. Instead, the admins focus on completely unproductive things like the couples spot and the 'diagon alley fall festival.' If the admins are unable to find a solution to the more major problems of the site, then I suggest that the team be replaced by more skilled and efficient admins. They have to be able to create a good plot, and then manage it well. Currently, the plot has no direction. Worse, it involves hardly any of the members. I mean, all the major positions are controled by the admins... Sure, this gives you further control of the plot, but it also makes the members feel like they are not part of it.

Another problem that I will point out is the members. While I was admin, I made and enforced a post limit of 75 words. I planned to increase this gradually, after a month or 2 increase it to 100, then 125, 150 and so on. I don't like overly long posts, but when the majority of the members post less than 125 words, (with incorrect punctuation and grammar) then you know theres a problem. Now of course, members post lower than 75 words constantly. Besides posting extremely low quality posts, some members also don't participate in classes or in the plot (back when we actually had one ). Like Caelani said, the majority of the roleplaying between members is just romance. There is also a large amount of unrealistic roleplaying here and metagaming. My suggestions to fix this is to be stricter with the members breaking the rules, and not allow the members who post below 100 words to create new characters. Besides that, creating a good plot and then advertising on sites like Caution and RPG-D will help a bit in bringing good new members to the site.

Finally, the plot. In my opinion you guys should really just start over. Start a brand new (original) plot which the members will actually be interested in. Try to make the members actually feel part of the plot next time. PA has always had admins taking any ranks which actually matter plot-wise. Personally, I would like to see something that doesn't involve the Death Eaters and Order. Or if it does, at least make it original and not a replay of the books.

Selwyn:
Sorry if I misunderstood what you said, it just seemed as though you are, and although it mightn't have been aimed at me specifically, you did attack the team, I mean, surely you can see how I could take offence at what you said, it mightn't have been intentional, but it was fairly attacking, but oh well, doesn't really matter to me.

Again, I think it comes into what I was saying above, even if it wasn't intentional, it sure seemed as if that's what you were getting at, even if not at me personally, saying that some of the admins were more caught up in being admins than in doing the job right... Can you see where what I was saying came from. The small things? The ones you don't need, sure, they mightn't be necessary, but I don't think they harm anything, and we enjoy doing them, I like the new personal houses system, and I think it's good that the couples have a place to be, that's why I did it, not because I think the site was in desperate need of it.

And ok, not a problem, I'll try my best to be open minded in this next bit, always fun to try new things just kidding, of course.

Ok, I might be, and I can understand what you're saying quite easily, I will admit, most of our plots have a predetermined ending, but that's mainly because we decide to have one plot lead into the next one, I'm not saying that we know exactly what's going to happen, but we know the end, and that's where we'd like the site to go, we do want the means to getting there to be up to you guys though, but that's how we want it to end, is that fair?

Also, we like being a part of the plots, remember, we like Rping as much as you guys do, it's good fun, we enjoy it, we just choose to develop the site while we do so, haha, but we do try and encourage the members to come up with their own little plot things. E.g. The pranking stuff, the half-breed stuff, all that was non-admin oriented until they specifically asked to be included in the plot, then we started planning them in, but it's really, really hard to plot our stuff around your stuff when we don't know what's going on, that's one reason why i think that Keith's idea for the mods could be a good one.

With the romance thing, I can agree on what you're saying there, and i really am trying to pull us out of that habit, because, and i may go off on a side-track here, the site used to be like that beaubatons carriage. We were one of the most beautiful communities i've ever seen on a site, it was wonderful really, and i think that we can return to that feeling of community and comradery that we once had, but we would need to scale back the site, because, in all honesty, the introduction of Graduates has easily been one of the most damaging things to that community. Fact of the matter is that the site operates in two different groups, students and grads, relation between the two is minimal at best, and very rarely can the plots combine both groups together, almost solely because of this split, i mean, i'm sure a plot would help remedy the split, but i know for one that i have great difficulties trying to provide something that links both groups together, suggestions are welcome for that. I would very much like to see the site return to that feeling of community, but i can't see it happening particularly soon, which deeply saddens me, though i had hoped that this plot i was going to bring in, but having read this wont be, would sort all that out. Oh well, it's a shame because i think i could've helped bring it together a bit. *Sigh* Mind you, i think that the inactivity in main topics could be a part of this, in hogwarts at least, that sort of sandbox RPing was good for non-hostile RP. But on the romance note, i don't actually see it playing a major factor in many threads, if that was at all a part of the issue.

And i got what you meant, and i think I come close to that role at points, i don't really want people to see me as a prick, but i am, if you break my rules majorly, i will throw something at you, normally a rulebook, there are a few pepole on this site who i'm sure would agree that i do this occasionally, maybe not enough though. I simply don't see it very often, if i see someone being rude or mean, i tell them to quit it, you've been on the receiving end of this a few times haven't you Selwyn, haha, but rarely do i see actions that require something as harsh as banning the member, this may be because i don't pay enough attention, or because i don't check all the topics, but if i'm in a topic and i see a breach of rules, i'll point it out and tell the person not to do it, but like i said, i've never really seen that big a breach that requires really harsh discipline. Mind you, again, i plan on implementing this mod idea, trust me, it's been waaay too long since we've had it, hopefully that'll help with rule enforcement and what not.
But back onto the topic of mean admining (I know that's not what you meant, in essence) i don't think that we're slack in admining, we just don't see anything that requires harshness, most of the time any rule breaches are very minor, accidental, or are ceased after the first warning.
And you named my other concern, i'm rather fond of everyone on this site, whether they're a pain in the ass, or they're the best member in the world, i really don't want them to leave, because they're my friends, that may make me seem soft, but i like you all too much to even take a chance that you may leave, i know that it could be seen as my job to do things like that, but i think that we can get things done and enforced without having people leave/get upset, having said that, i wont let my like of you all get in the way of enforcing rules, so don't worry about that.

As for the seeing metagaming, powerplaying and all that jazz, again, i think i've covered it inadvertantly above (I love this stage of critique replies, where i've begun to cover things before i reach them : D). I just don't see it, and yes, it's due to my lack of time to scan through threads, but if i see it, i will send warnings out, again, i just don't see it. I think the new mod system (Which i've had enough of mentioning, moment i finish this reply i'm bringing it in) will remedy this greatly, i just hope you guys agree.
As for reports. Well:
I'm on the page now and i've got two reports from any of your charries in the past two years.
One was on September the 27th, where someone interacted with you when you had already left the room.
The other was July the 23rd when you reported an advertisement because someone had decided to join to advertise.
So, unless someone has been deleting half the reports, which i doubt because all the admins i've spoken to haven't been doing it, the system isn't working. Thanks for bringing this to my attention, i'll see what i can do to fix that, any chance you know of a way to do just that?

As for roles, we all do a bit of everything really, i don't think we have a specific set of roles, we did awhile ago, then admins changed, then when we tried it again, well, i did, and i failed to replicate the success, as people were having issues with sharing jobs, and what not, i'd be open to a new system being worked out, but i wont try it again, i don't think, i'd rather leave it to Darren or someone else, just 'cause i don't think i'm particularly good with it.

Generally though, if you need something answered, PM me, because i do know everything about the site, what's going on and rules, that stuff, i mean, the more technical stuff is often lost on me, but i do have a vague idea of what to do.

Again, i will work on that, i'm taking all the suggestions on board, and i'll work on it, mind you, i have to re-write the bloody thing now i think, so it may take a little longer, i think i can leave you all room to breathe

Now this next bit, i will be a bit close-minded about, i'm sorry, there's not a chance i can spare time to look through all the topics, or even a handful, like i said, my time is quite strained, however i'll definitely look at any examples you send to me, and the mods should keep a good eye on things, i think.

And i think that may need a little more clarification, but i get the gist of what you mean. i'll try, i hope i've taken a step in that direction with this reply, but if you have a pointer for me, feel free to send it my way, haha.
(Euh, that was one person and i'm at 1,589 words, shoot me now?)

Majere:

Ah Majere, i always look forward to waking up and seeing your next comment on the admin team. Just puts a happy feeling right into my heart of hearts : D

Well, that was the aim of this topic, as i think i stated, i did intend for some suggestions to come in, so i'm glad you're commenting here, that was the aim.

Anyway, onto what you said. I can agree with you there, PA is an incredibly lucky site, but there is a reason it's stuck around, i mean sites don't just stick around for three years on the back of "Luck" i think PA has a lot to owe to it's member base, and the admin team must be doing something right to keep it going.

Now, on this next bit, the admin team do not have a predefined set of roles, nor is our leadership the best, but we get along, i just spoke to one of my admins and they think that i do a good job directing them, if they need help, i help them, if they want to know whether or not to do something, i'll give in my two cents, but i think we've come a great way from the days of not being able to do anything without Darren's go ahead, that's a good thing at the very least. As for focusing entirely on insignificant things, i can't speak for the halloween festival, but i know that the couple's spot took all of about 5 minutes a day for a few days to sort out, and that was replying to the topic, the actual spot making probably took less time than that. As for replacing the team, how to you suppose we do that. Who would you suggest Vincent? I know that there are a few chinks in the team, but i'm already discussing a replacement with others. But the whole team. Where would i get that? I could hire you i suppose, oh wait, you buggered off for two months without warning, after being admin for all of a about one fortnight. I think that the admin team does a decent job as it is thank you very much, you should just be quiet with the unhelpful nasty comments thanks.

Also, with that plan, you weren't admin long enough to pull it through, remember, you just left. Then when you came back a month later got the shits with us because we'd demoted you and sacked you because you hadn't given ANY warning or explanation, for all we knew you'd left for good. Also, when you really think about it, 125, 75 words, all that stuff is fine, considering the content of a post that's 125+ words is normally "character a said hi to character b" and the other 100 words is "Character A thought about how his cat hadn't been fed, what a worry that was, oh well, he'd sort it out later" Yes, i agree one liners are a joke, but i don't see the necessity of raising the amount of stupid thoughts a charrie has in a post just so that people think that we're a spectacular site, and as for grammar and punctuation.

Well, here's a direct quote from a PM i received from a member after reading this post
[quote=]Why don't you bring up some of the members not exactly caring. about plot and stuff? Bring up the thought of members just logging on because SOME people are nice to them on the site. That people log on because they enjoy the people they roleplay with. Not because of plot, or grammer errors, or anything.[/quote]
I think that really sums up the thoughts of the people who care about what this site is, not what it could be. I know for one i'd rather RP with someone who's got grammar problems, but is a nice person, than some obsessive freak who's a complete ass to me. : )
((Does that count as being the mean admin selwyn))

As for classes, we're working on it, but it's hard for students to reply to a class where there's no teacher, because the DEs've been inactive, and the plot, well we've always said that people don't have to participate in the plots, have we not? It's no fun if you're being forc-...
omg
epiphany
selwyn, read what i just said, i think the grinch's heart just grew....

Like i said, i don't see much roleplaying, but i don't think romance is as big a factor as it used to be, however people have romance in their lives, the characters are meant to be like people, so they should have romances, shouldn't they?

Again, rules, read through this reply and you'll see what i've said on this.

However, i do agree that making new charries could be something we could use as a reward for good whatevering, because there is a rather big influx of them atm >>

And finally, we've polled the members about this before, i'd be willing to do the poll again, but i'd be more inclined to think that it'd just be the same thing, if it means that much to you though, i can give it a try if you want. As for original plots, it wont be half as original as the demon plot, i'm afraid, but i'd be willing to try something new, if you'd like to send a suggestion or two my way, and as for making members feel involved, tell me how i'm not, and how i can, and i will.

At the moment, the admins don't hold all that many ranks, but you were guilty of this too, Mr. Headmaster, temp. head DE, so don't go giving out lectures about power hungry admins and what not.

Euh, done, i'll reply to keith and jack soon.

IYBPFLUIUGBFP:IELUHGSLIUBEGLUYVDCLUEDHAELFIUG

Now that I've got your attention, I'd like to try and streamline this arguing process.

Now, first let me say that I read through these posts, which is actually kind of a big deal for me because I'm lazy. That lazy. Hold your applause.

Now, having read the above posts, I think i can identify a few problems popping up here.

Selwyn and Majere complain that there's no plot. They say the admins are unfocused, running around and redoing things like the personal house system when the site seems to have no purpose. There is no point. There is no PLOT. Plot is a big issue here. They say the admins seek to control the plot too much, and don't seem to focus on the little things, such as metagaming, etc.

Jess responds by saying that he'd love to mobilize the plot, but the issue lies with the members. Specifically, the DEs. Now, I've run the DEs, (I've quit now, due to classes ramping up, I've already sent Jess the PM) and I'm going to say that it is an absolute NIGHTMARE. Seriously. Mainly because there wasn't anything for me to do.

I had literally no idea what to do when the Demon plot rolled around. I didn't know about Demons, what they could and couldn't do. I didn't know what their point was. Personally I was against the whole demon thing but didn't say anything because I trusted the people in charge.

Jess would tell me to get the DEs active, and ALL I COULD DO was plan ANOTHER MEETING. I don't know about you, but after I post about 10 different meetings it gets kind of dull. Let's face it - the DEs ran their course in the Harry Potter books. They're shallow, evil, one dimensional villains, and they just don't work.

So scrap the DEs. Scrap them hard. Sure, you can still be one I suppose, but they shouldn't matter. This is a Hogwarts RP about Hogwarts students. Let the students have control of the plot.

I think the admins need to sit down and talk. For a long time. And discuss where you can go with the plot. Without involving the DE/Order confrontation again. It's boring, it's tedious, and it's overdone. Choose something the students can do. Keep it within the Harry Potter flavor, but give it it's own original spin.

For example, Selwyn created (or was going to create) the Hogwarts Hobgoblins, a pranking group consisting of students. This is a wonderful idea. So much can be done with it. Rival groups, the prefects, people getting pranked, etc. etc.

I'm going to stop now, because I have an AP history paper to right. Good day.

Honestly, I agree with Keith on a matter of subjects. The demon plot failed because no one really knew anything about them- the demons' RPers included. It was all so vague that everyone was cautious about it. And I would agree that the Death Eater's are often unrealistically one-dimensional.

But here is what I think. The great thing about HP RP sites, is that it isn't roleplaying about school... That'd get boring. Hogwarts is not just a school, there are all these great surprises to be added to it. But the biggest motivation in the books that kept Hogwarts interesting is that the things the adults were trying to keep the students safe from... were getting closer and closer to Hogwarts.

Why is the idea of DA/PA so thrilling? Because it is exciting to see that kids are rising up and taking on things adults thought them incapable of doing.

I know I keep bringing up a Death Eater invasion and the reasons against it are worthy. But I am telling you that I think this could really spurn some greater roleplays. Especially if we have some Umbridge-like rules. No romances for example... That would make most of the people who are RP-ing romances not only have an added tension to their plot, but also make people have to stretch a bit.

The idea that there are too many good professors and not enough Death Eaters... There is this thing called the Imperius Curse that I would have thought would have had more prominence. Last we heard, the Death Eaters had trumped the Order, so shouldn't they have more influence? Again, I know that the reasons are that there are not Death Eaters... But I'm sure some people with 'good guys' who would agree to be Imperiused for the sake of the plot. I would offer up mine. And there are other people who I am sure would create characters to fit the bill... And then there are all these foreigns. Most people created theres so that they could compete. Now that the champions have been chosen, there are many plot-less foreigns wandering around Hogwarts. Imagine what would happen if they were Imperiused on a Hogsmeade trip, with only one motive; to start killing students... Or something evilly like that.

Then there was Keith's idea of having some sort of lockdown. Maybe it is just because I am reading a book on the Columbine High shooting, but some sort of disaster like that could possibly rock the plot into mobility. And this is the wizarding world... I'm sure we could think of SOMETHING. Even if we have to be as lame as saying 'dragons are attacking the school. We're now on lockdown' at least SOMETHING will be happening.

While I'm not sure that the Death Eaters and Order need to be erased, I think their plots need to be refocused. Death Eaters vs Hogwarts. Order vs Ministry. OR something of that sort. Just a suggestion.

And I keep hearing the excuse that no one will do any of this. But I am constantly IM-ing members who are saying "I'm this close to just commandeering the DE plot" or "I should just have my character take this faction over so we can get some stuff done." Maybe these people need to be more vocal. I'll lead by example then; I'd like to take over Potter's Army so we can get that under way. I hope people who are willing to step up will also do so.

I also agree with Caelani that we spend too much time planning, and too little time actually RPing. I will admit, I am big on plotting, but I find the most important things that happen in a RP are when we get past the point of plotting and we just give our characters full reign. (For example, my epic plot between Vito, Chase and Andrew... Basically everything in that just began to fall into place once we relaxed our grip on it, and it is the most amazing plot I have been apart of in my time RP-ing.)

On a last, partially unrelated note, (though it is a tip for any members reading who) a good way to establish plot developments is through plotting with other characters and posting open threads. Almost every time there is a new character who I can see relating to my character, I send a PM offering to RP, with plot ideas out there. I click on the 'view unanswered posts' to see if there are any open threads that I could join. So if you are bored and want something to do, instead of heading over to the Games, post a random, open thread. Seriously, it will help.

Keith:
Well, good job, you got my attention

Well, that's all in the past now, the demon plot is gone, we're not resurfacing it, we're not revisiting it, but i think i've definitely learned through it that i need to communicate with all of you a lot better, and leave things open a lot, i think a bit of that plot's fault was that it needed things to happen for it to work, not gonna happen again, haha. But i am sorry, I definitely should've handled the communications between you and I a heck of a lot better, i've learnt that too, i'll be better next time, once we have a DE head and plot *facepalms* gosh i have a lot to do haha.

I can see the sense in that, but the DEs are a big part of the HP universe, i can't see any new villainous groups emerging without being modeled on them, at the very least, i think it'd be worthwhile to work on remodelling them, not doing away with them. Whoever the new head DE is will be someone i think can help with that, we'll try and make them a new type of villain, i think.

Trust me, we have, and we usually just end up in a bit of a mess, but normally khaat and I can pull out something good. it's just hard to get a good plot that involves everyone, and is interesting, and all that jazz, but we are trying to shift it to Hogwarts more, something which is a little tougher for us, we may resort to a bridging plot while we sort out a hogwarts one.

And i've said it a few times, i do support student rivalries and what not, i just need details, i like to leave them up to you members to sort out, but i might start my own with Sam, or jump him into someone else's to fuel it along.

Jack:
Discussed the demon plot before

See, see what i mean. Gosh, it's hard to cater for everyone haha, i've got one person on one side saying one thing, and another on another saying another, haha. I'm used to it though, and we've got something new planned.

Again, student plots = wholehearted support, i'll be working it into this next plot.

Well, if we get the DEs active, i'll definitely do it, if i can't though, i'm afraid it goes out of the plot, i have to have something to work with, if i don't this wont work, ok. But if we have their activity by the end of this next plot i'll reinforce hogwarts with DE teachers and evilness.

I've also spoken to said teachers, they're going to be nice, and when we have DE teachers, i'll try and get them to be evil, so fingers crossed that'll work out

And are you suggesting we lock students in hogwarts? She who just a month ago was pitched against it? Ok, well, we'll give it a try at some point, see how it goes.

We'll do something with Order and DE stuff as well to keep the grads busy, but i wanna focus on hogwarts this time

((work now, i'll finish this in a few hours. Night!))

*points to Keith's post about lockdown* That's what I mean.